| Author | Message | ||
     Tom Ansell Username: Tom35 Registered: 02-2008 |
Hi, Can anyone tell me how Victorian stained glass makers managed to achieve the perfectly black matte finish on their lead work? I normally use Zebrite, but can never come close to that effect with it. Did they just have much better brands of blacklead then, I wonder? I would appreciate any comments. Thanks. Tom Ansell | ||
| Rona Moody Username: Rona Registered: 12-2006 |
As far as I'm aware, the Victorians did not use any blacking on their lead. Time and exposure to the air are brilliant for turning shiny silvery lead in to matt black with no effort - you just have to be patient... | ||
| Tom Ansell Username: Tom35 Registered: 02-2008 |
Thanks. 100 years or so is a long time to wait though- maybe an oxygen tank like Michael Jackson's would speed up the oxidation process! | ||
| Rona Moody Username: Rona Registered: 12-2006 |
Ah, but you need to work out how to get that oxidised look without it actually BEING oxidised - 100-year-old lead is getting to the end of its life and is often papery. Then again, I gather Micky's on his uppers so he might just let you have his tank for experimenting for a pittance... | ||
| Stephen Richard Username: Glass43 Registered: 11-2006 |
Rhona, There is a long discussion on the Yahoo stainedglassforum under the topic Putty. In brief, this is done by brushing. Once the cement is brushed under the leads with the cementing/scrubbing brush, use the scrubbing brush to go over the leading until the leads are very dark and the solder joints are bright. The more colour drawn up onto the leads, the darker the final polish will be. This should be done before picking out the putty. Change to a polishing brush. with relatively light pressure and rapid movement rub the brush over the leads until the solder joints become the same colour as the lead. If you want a real shine change to a very soft brush and continue until you achieve the required polish. Steve | ||
| Rona Moody Username: Rona Registered: 12-2006 |
Thanks Steve for adding that - you're right, I should have mentioned brushing to my reply but I was posting in haste! It's worth adding that the brushes should be natural bristle, not plastic, which can tear and scratch the lead. Will have a look at the Yahoo discussion, though it sounds as if they are using the words cement and putty interchangeably - one of my bugbears is that cement and putty are two different things, and that cement is the generic term and not the same as Portland cement, which is where the confusion seems to arise. | ||
| Rona Moody Username: Rona Registered: 12-2006 |
BTW to return to Tom's original question - the brushing Steve mentions darkens and shines the lead, but will not give the flat black you want; that's where the time comes in! | ||
| Stephen Richard Username: Glass43 Registered: 11-2006 |
Well Rhona not all natural or plastic bristles are created equal. Very stiff natural bristles can scratch much more easily than nylon bristles. Also if you don't clean your brushes well, the hardened lead light cement will scratch the leads very badly. (That assumes you are a penny pinching worker who uses brushes until the bristles have worn down to a fraction of the orignial length!) For cementing brushes, I prefer a medium stiff nylon bristled brush. I use a soft scrubing brush for initial polish and a long-haired, large shoe polishing brush for the final shine. Steve | ||
| Rona Moody Username: Rona Registered: 12-2006 |
Yes to the soft scrubbing brush and the shoe brush, and it may well be your experience of plastic brushes is more recent than mine! I gave up using them a few years back when a couple of jobs I was doing got quite scratched and a flange got torn. I was not amused. I've never had a problem with natural bristles. I do reuse my brushes - terribly wasteful not to - but I gave up a lot of cleaning when I realised that it was not very environmentally good to be using chemicals to clean them and someone told me to store them in the freezer between cementings, which works pretty well for me. I would imagine hardened cement would wreak havoc with soft lead. Of course, I should really have a freezer for food and a freezer for art materials but since the brushes are the only arty thing I store, I just make sure they're well sealed. | ||
| Tony Banfield Username: Tony Registered: 12-2006 |
I picked up the freezer tip fom Vic.....after a cementing session,I just put my cement-brush (still with residue of fresh cement) into a plastic bag, inside a hinged-lid plastic box and pop it in the bottom (coldest) part of the freezer...no taint . Next cementing, take it out five minutes before use and it's still wet and undried-out. | ||
| Rona Moody Username: Rona Registered: 12-2006 |
"I picked up the freezer tip fom Vic....." ...and I probably got it from you! Ain't the internet great? | ||
| Tony Banfield Username: Tony Registered: 12-2006 |
Vic (or Ernie) gave me another great cement time-saver tip....about 1" of water (which won't react with or dissolve the underlying oily cement) poured onto the top of your cement before re-lidding keeps it absolutely crust-free.....next cementing, just pour off the water and dig into nice fresh cement...no crust, no waste ! | ||
| Ed the Editor Username: Ed_the_editor Registered: 11-2006 |
Tony, Two really good tips there, so I've added them to the technical tips page in the main part of the web site. With credits to you of course. Ed | ||
| Rona Moody Username: Rona Registered: 12-2006 |
Yup, I remember Vic passing on the water tip. I don't use shop-bought, making up what I need at the time, but it apparently works brilliantly and is one I've passed on to many students who don't have the space to store ingredients, or the inclination to make their own. Another thing that works well, I'm told, is cling film, but water's environmentally better. | ||
| Tony Banfield Username: Tony Registered: 12-2006 |
Another clingfilm tip..Cling-film is BRILLIANT for keeping paintbrushes fresh overnight (or even for a few days) when the annual spring redecorating bug kicks in.... paintbrushes are now so cheap in Pound shops (probably made from Chinese pooches) that you can clingfilm them all through the decorating then fling them (probably healthier for the environemnt than flushing all that white sprit into the sewers! ) | ||
| Rona Moody Username: Rona Registered: 12-2006 |
That's a tip you gave me a while ago and I've used it LOTS in decorating our new house! Discovered that it also works well for brushes with varnish. | ||
| Stephen Richard Username: Glass43 Registered: 11-2006 |
If you use scrubbing/ cementing brushes through to the stage of getting the leads black and glass shiney, you will see that a properly made brush will be pushing the cement within its bristles out the top sides of the brush. A properly made brush has bristle bunches gathered tightly at the handle and spreading out to about tiwce the base diameter at the cut ends of the bristles. As explained to me by a brush maker, this allows the brushing action to move the "rubbish" from the bristle ends to the handle. At the end of scrubbing and before beginning the polishing, several runs through the brush with a fid will clean out the excess lead light cement. Rubbing the brush hard against the edge of the bench will clear out the bits of putty that would later turn to pebbles that would scratch the glass. No need for solvents, or water. Better for the environment. The stiffness/harshness of the bristle is important. If the bristles feel scratchy when rubbed firmly against my palm, the brush is too harsh for lead light work. I find the natural bristle brushes I have been able to find are more scratchy than the nylon ones I use. Of course, some plastic bristels are too harsh. Brush selection is not a simple "that looks nice", but a more tried and tested selection. sTeve | ||
| Hywel Harris Username: Hywelh Registered: 01-2007 |
A method I've used for semi-patinating a panel that has to match an existing old panel. I use a dedicated scrubbing brush to remove the tallow after soldering and over time this becomes loaded with tallow. After cementing (and I keep the brush in the pot with the cement) as normal, this will leave some linseed oil on the panel and lead. Leave it to dry for approx. 2 days then using the tallow brush scrub just the solder joints lightly. Now using your normal polishing brush the panel will buff up to a dull grey and some of the dull grey will adhere to the solder joints, if not re-do them with the tallow brush and scrub some more. This gives a pretty good approximation of naturally aged lead. | ||
| Tom Ansell Username: Tom35 Registered: 02-2008 |
Many thanks for these tips- but is there a reason more people don't just use a chemical lead patina like "Novacan Black Patina for Lead"? I've never tried it myself but wonder has anyone else had good results with this sort of thing. | ||
| Pat from Canvey Username: Pat Registered: 12-2006 |
I've used Novacan Black on new panels because I like the shiny blackness after polish is applied. Tom's original post wanted to reproduce the colour of aged lead and Novacan won't do that. Only time and weather. | ||
| Stephen Richard Username: Glass43 Registered: 11-2006 |
Also patinas are acids. If you have care for the longevity of the windows you make, you will avoid introducing acids as much as possible. (Glass being an akaline material) Steve | ||
| Delia Scales Username: Delia8 Registered: 01-2007 |
Hi Tom, the way I was trained was to put black cement powder (like Febtone) in the cement mix. This creates a dark grey cement. After picking and brushing away the excess cement I spray a very light coat of window cleaner (I have never used water but maybe this would work too). I use a medium firm brush to coat the lead and the solder joints with lead / cement residue. Wait for it to dry then use a soft brush (the best ones I've found are old Army shoe brushes - the bristles tend to be very close together) and buff slowly from different angles building up to quite a firm buff. I hope that makes sense it's a bit tricky to explain! The end result are panels that have dark grey lead and solder joints. You can vary the amount of cement black in the cement for matching to paler grey. | ||
| Tommy the Technician Username: Rod Registered: 12-2006 |
I just had to comment, sorry Rona & Tom but the original ? was how did they get lead so black! well way back in he past when many were just a thought and of course I include you both. lead light cement was made from a wide range of ingredients including 'Lamp Black' from the old gas lamps. it was so fine and powdery it made well ground paint look course. I can assure you it got everywhere and made you sneeze. I think that this along with time, remeber we had heavy industrial smog then. The lamp black is now a banned substance as is red lead so we are left with either grate black paste or a chemical. DGS sell an alternative to Novacan which does not leave that grey effect it may be worth a try. It is the original Multicore recipe. Although after all is done there is no substute for good old elbow grease. | ||
| Rona Moody Username: Rona Registered: 12-2006 |
Not clear why you say "sorry...the original ? was how did they get lead so black!". Assuming ? means question, that is what we were addressing. I have actually used lamp black (a type of carbon black obtained from the soot of burned fat, oil, tar, or resin) when I did some experimenting with panels a while back. Red lead is indeed banned, but not so lamp black. I can let you know where to get it if you wish, as it's commercially available. Currently, lamp black is used as a black pigment in cements, ceramics, printing inks, crayons, shoe polishes, and carbon paper). The black darkens the cement so you are less aware of it; the amount of lamp black that gets on to the lead - and stays there when it has been brushed - is so small that it would have to be a "homeopathic" effect to properly blacken the lead. Giving both panels the same amount of brushing resulted in the lead being the same colour with and without the lamp black, and they seem to be darkening at the same rate. I think you seem to be agreeing that time is a major factor as were particulates in the atmosphere. When you go on to say "so we are left with either black grate polish or a chemical", does that mean that those are what you would suggest to emulate the effect now? Which of course is not the answer to what they did then! Interestingly, I've gone back through several of my Victorian text books, and no-one mentions lamp black for any use other than darkening the cement. Later, Duthie specifically states that the only purpose for lamp black is to make the colour of the cement right. I have just spent a few days at the American Glass Guild annual conference and spoke to several of the country's leading restorers, as well as restorers from Europe. No one had come across the Victorians on either side of the pond darkening the actual lead by any method other than elbow grease, which you seem to be agreeing with by the end of your post. And, as we said before, time. |