| Author | Message | ||
     Jon |
From beyond the grave, I have resurrected the discourse on printing on glass which culminated in Cathy's successful experiments. Sorry it's all in one long spiel... ----------------------------------------- WWW Discussion Board: TECHNICAL HELP FORUM of the UK Stained Glass News board: Printing on glass MTMTMTMTPOST4719POST4719MBMBBy Jon Stamford (Jon_stamford) ( - 81.159.29.114) on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 01:03 pm: I have just read Kevin Petrie's "Glass and Print" where he mentions a simple alternative to screenprinting. This involves printing a design, using a laser printer, onto transfer paper. This is then floated onto the surface of the glass - same technology as one used with all those Airfix Spifires as a kid - and then fired in the kiln to make it permanent. He draws attention to the perils of using the wrong kind of laser printer or transfer paper (gummed up and ruined printer) but is a little more coy about the right kind of combination. It looks like a really interesting and simple technique if it works. Does anyone have any experience or advice? Cheers, Jon ---------------------------------- MTMTPOST4715POST4715POST4792POST4792MBMBBy Cathy_carr (Cathy_carr) ( - 84.67.240.19) on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 02:51 pm: Hi Jon - You must be at the same stage of research as I am. I've read his book and tracked down ready made glass and ceramic decals for use in this way - but have yet to work out how to print my own designs using a laser printer. I can order in bulk from people who supply ceramic decals - but as I just want to use one design at a time and experiment this is not practical and very expensive. I visited the degree show at sunderland university and there was loads of work with printing involved. I've done stencils with enamels and screen printing with enamels but the idea of photocopy decals really appeals. Perhaps a local print shop will give you the advice we need, although if there is anyone out there that can help please let us know. ------------------------------------ MTMTPOST4719POST4719POST4793POST4793MBMBBy Cathy_carr (Cathy_carr) ( - 84.69.43.86) on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 02:38 pm: Hi Jon - found some info that might help http://www2.cemr.wvu.edu/%7Evenable/rmi/studio/xer4jac.pdf --------------------------------- MTMTPOST4792POST4792POST4794POST4794MBMBBy Jon Stamford (Jon_stamford) ( - 217.43.177.13) on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 09:10 pm: Now that IS interesting, Cathy. I bought some Lazertran transfer paper last week and followed Petrie's recipe using my laser printer. Printing onto the transfer - piece of cake Transfering image to glass - fiddly but OK Firing it to an image on the glass - disaster Couldn't wait to open the kiln in the morning - what did I see on the test pieces - several well fused but completely clear pieces of glass. Very deflated. The issue if the type of toner used - some use iron in the toner, some don't. My laser is an epson 5900. It clearly doesn't. Looks like I need a friend with a Laserjet. I am going to email Kevin Petrie and see if I can get some more info. I will pass on anything useful. If I get it to work, i might even post some pix! Jon ------------------------------------ MTMTPOST4793POST4793POST4795POST4795MBMBBy Patricia Piggott (Patfromcanvey) ( - 82.34.26.105) on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 08:15 am: Very interesting link Cathy. Thanks for posting it ---------------------------------- MTMTPOST4794POST4794POST4838POST4838MBMBBy Cathy_carr (Cathy_carr) ( - 84.69.43.86) on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 12:15 pm: Bad luck Jon - I was just about to buy a laser printer - and rashly thought anyone would do the job. I thought they all used iron in their toners. I'll try and see if I can get any information from the printer manufacturers re toners and iron. For some reason I did'nt think laserton worked but can't for the life of me remember why - so it might not be your printer. Let me know.... ------------------------------------------ MTMTPOST4795POST4795POST4839POST4839MBMBBy Jon Stamford (Jon_stamford) ( - 81.151.194.65) on Sunday, October 1, 2006 - 08:18 am: Hi Cathy, I emailed Kevin Petrie who wrote back to say that he did not know which printers were suitable but suggested I email Paul Scott. I did but received no reply. Then I came across Emily Bellhouse's work. Her stuff looks too detailed to be screen printed so I am guessing she uses laser printing. I emailed her for details. No reply either. I think, because she is doing it commercially, she may be reluctant to share - which I understand. Kevin Petrie did draw my attention to a one say symposium on glass and print (Royal College of Art, 26th October) he is organising (http://www.glassandprint.info). If I have a chance, I might attend - it wasn't onerously expensive (£40). If I do and there is stuff of interest, I will report back. Did you get any further with your researches? Jon ---------------------------------- MTMTPOST4838POST4838POST4840POST4840MBMBBy Cathy_carr (Cathy_carr) ( - 84.69.242.23) on Tuesday, October 3, 2006 - 10:15 pm: Hi Jon Until today, I had come up against a brick wall trying to find further information. However, thanks in no small part to Rona, I have just begun a degree in 3D art at MMU. An exhibition by a group called artefact is being held, in which Nigel Hurlstone is exhibiting what looks like photographs on glass. Apparently, he is one of the academic staff in the art and design dept! I will try and track him down within the department, or e mail him asking for further info. Not sure what he's going to think of a 'fresher' asking him such technical questions or if he'll be forthcoming with his techniques, but I'll try. http://www.artdes.mmu.ac.uk/artefact/ I have asked the man in charge of the print room, as they have loads of HP laser printers, but they don't allow printing on acetate type substances as he says it damages the printers. If you do get to the RCA let me know if it was useful, and I'll use my new resources to find out more. Cathy PS Rona - thanks again ------------------------------------ MTMTPOST4839POST4839POST4841POST4841MBMBBy Rona Moody (Rona_moody) ( - 62.252.224.25) on Wednesday, October 4, 2006 - 01:45 pm: Cathy - you're more than welcome! All the best. ----------------------------------- MTMTPOST4840POST4840POST4853POST4853MBMBBy Jon Stamford (Jon_stamford) ( - 81.159.29.194) on Wednesday, October 4, 2006 - 10:23 pm: I have booked for the symposium and will feed back accordingly. I remember you saying you were offered a place at MMU (I seem to remember offering my own three penn'orth on the debate). I'd be very interested in hearing what Nigel Hurlstone does to get images on glass - it could well be what we were both looking for. Jon PS: and good luck at Uni ----------------------------------- MTMTPOST4841POST4841POST4866POST4866MBMBBy Cathy_carr (Cathy_carr) ( - 84.70.161.156) on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 06:08 pm: HI Jon, had a message back from Nigel Hurlstone. Unfortunately, its not very helpful to us. He prints photographically, using liquid light photo emulsion (from Jessops) and uses traditional darkroom techniques to print onto the glass rather than paper. Perhaps I need to learn photography too! My next contact is a man called Mike Brown who is the senior person in charge of glass - I'll e mail him or try and track him down and see if he knows anything. Hope you enjoy the symposium - I'd love to be going. Cathy ------------------------------------- MTMTPOST4853POST4853POST4867POST4867MBMBBy Cathy_carr (Cathy_carr) ( - 62.136.160.62) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 07:21 pm: Found another useful site. It specifically mentions HP and Apple printers - but not Epsoms. http://www.potterymaking.org/issues/2006-0910/TipsFromThePros.pdf Also on the Lasertran site, they have a list of printers that will work, though its paper is only designed to go up to 200oC, so that might have been a problem too. http://www.lazertran.com/products/lazertran_products_printers.htm Mike Brown was very helpful.He knows of some students have once used old HP printers onsite to print onto glass, though he's not sure if there are any about now (printers that is), he thinks they used lasertran. He has given me the name of the IT person to ask, which I will do on Wednesday. He has done a lot of screen printing onto glass on memorial windows etc and was very intrigued by our experiments/research. He will also ask around to see if anyone else in the department has experience of this technique. Meanwhile - I am ordering some ceramic decal paper and will track down a HP printer. Lets see what happens next....... --------------------------------------- MTMTPOST4866POST4866POST4868POST4868MBMBBy Rona Moody (Rona_moody) ( - 62.252.224.25) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 08:06 pm: Just had a long train journey during which I read Duthie's "Decorative Glass Processes", written 1911. In it, he mentions various patents for different decorative finishes, including one where you cover glass with copal varnish, warm it up, apply a print (he suggests litho or engraved), heat it up and then the thing is fixed. Oh, and you rub it down with rottenstone. There are another couple of ways of printing. Think I may have a play if I can track down copal and rottenstone (apparently weathered limestone mixed with diatomaceous, amorphous, or crystalline silica. But you knew that?) A thought: assume this printing will be on to float? Did some screen printing on to mouthblown and it was a bit uneven. -------------------------------------- MTMTPOST4867POST4867POST4869POST4869MBMBBy Jon Stamford (Jon_stamford) ( - 81.159.26.211) on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 09:47 pm: I have seen HP printers mentioned - in KP's book too I think so that sounds promising. It's all to do with iron in the toner. Then there's the Lazertran. They make lots of different sorts... I shall look for leads on Thursday. The truth is out there... ------------------------------------ MTMTPOST4868POST4868POST4878POST4878MBMBBy Cathy_carr (Cathy_carr) ( - 84.70.171.118) on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 01:09 am: Hi Rona, Must be the night for older glass processes. Just read how to do 'Cliche Verre'or hylography using tallow candles, photosensitive paper and the sun. Sounds easier than finding copal and rottenstone, although the sun is a bit in short supply in glossop! I think I've worked out the printer problem having checked the environmental and safety standards of HP toners. Most of their mono laser cartridges contain 40-50% ferrous oxide which may work, are reasonably cheap and worth trying. However, Magnetic Ink Character Recognition (MICR) toners, which allows cheques to be read electronically, contain 60% iron oxide. Small problem though - they are very expensive. You assume right about the float, it must be really difficult to get an equal distribution of enamels through a mesh, and keep them from smudging/drying etc on anything not flat. Perhaps when I'm a bit more experienced....... ------------------------------------- MTMTPOST4869POST4869POST4880POST4880MBMBBy Janni Scott-Walton (Janni) ( - 82.25.194.38) on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 04:57 pm: Hello all, I don't know if it is of any use to you but, while on the warm glass bulletin board, I found a discussion on transferring images onto glass. Here's a link... http://www.warmglass.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=20914 (Ooh, I thought that would magically go green and become a clever shortcut thing but it didn't...maybe it will in a bit!) I fear your in-depth and scarily technical discussions have already gone way past the point where this could be helpful but you never can tell. Janni ------------------------------------- MTMTPOST4878POST4878POST4899POST4899MBMBBy Cathy_carr (Cathy_carr) ( - 62.136.168.8) on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 08:44 pm: Thanks Janni - all information gratefully received as we wrestle with this problem. I'm thinking of trying Lasertran again now I've found out a bit more about the toner involved. -------------------------------------- MTMTPOST4880POST4880POST4900POST4900MBMBBy Cathy_carr (Cathy_carr) ( - 62.136.160.88) on Sunday, November 12, 2006 - 01:38 pm: Jon, everyone - Its done! I trawled the Uni to find a printer I could use to print the decals. They would'nt let me use any - as they said the decal coating would ruin the drum. In frustration I went and bought a 'bog standard' laser printer for £79. Using an old newspaper cutting (of me 37 years ago!)I printed two decals and placed them onto the glass - firing to 1200F. I then capped one sample with some clear glass and fired to 1500F. It worked a treat. I scrubbed half of one sample to see how much of the image the glass had absorbed. It did fade slightly, but was still very good. This opens up loads of new ideas and opportunities for incorporation into a panel. I have put some photos on picture trail. Please let me know if they load or I need to edit them. http://www.picturetrail.com/cathycarr or http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=9021960&uid=4290334 Onwards and upwards - thanks for allowing me to work through this idea. ---------------------------------------- MTMTPOST4899POST4899POST4901POST4901MBMBBy Jon Stamford (Jon_stamford) ( - 86.146.160.16) on Sunday, November 12, 2006 - 06:53 pm: Cathy, that looks fantastic - more of a triumph than a success. It is exactly what I thought should be possible. Really atmospheric picture too! Can you let us know the make/model of the laser printer and of the decal paper. Do you float the decal paper off to attach the image to the glass? Or do you just burn off the paper in the kiln? please pass on the instructions. Now I know it can be done, I can justify buying a new laser! kids have been asking me for one anyway... Thank YOU for showing us the way. Jon ----------------------------------------- MTMTPOST4900POST4900POST4902POST4902MBMBBy Rona Moody (Rona_moody) ( - 62.252.224.25) on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 09:20 am: YAY! Well done, Cathy - that sounds (and looks) great. I'm now debating with myself whether to tell the advanced students and distract them from improving their painting...! Aside - did you learn about firing glass from American source? I only ask cos you're talking about fahrenheit temp and most of the rest of the world uses celsius/centigrade. I had a student ruined a piece of work cos she fired from an American book on a British kiln and didn't notice the difference. ------------------------------------ MTMTPOST4901POST4901POST4903POST4903MBMBBy Jon Stamford (Jon_stamford) ( - 86.146.160.16) on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 10:53 am: I fire in Fahrenheit too - although I have a US kiln so maybe that explains it. Used to drive my tutor crackers. ---------------------------------- MTMTPOST4902POST4902POST4904POST4904MBMBBy Rona Moody (Rona_moody) ( - 62.252.224.25) on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 11:51 am: The college has an American kiln whereas I use Celsius in my own workshop; some of my students come to classes at each, and it can get really confusing. I have written the firing temperature of paints/stains on jars and I've pasted a conversion chart on the inside of the college firing book but mistakes still happen. However, the college have now bought a super-duper computer controlled kiln which we've pre-set, so all you have to do is key in 1 for paint, 2 for stain, 3 for slump and so on. Brill. All I have to do now is persuade the students to check the kiln is empty of the paint pieces before they sling in their fusing bits - really! --------------------------------------- MTMTPOST4903POST4903POST4905POST4905MBMBBy Tony Banfield (Tony_banfield) ( - 81.153.187.1) on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 04:04 pm: Since the temperature control of my Enamelair kiln went tits-up after 20 years, but the kiln still fired up OK, I got an Armatherm (they're Cherman, so presumably good) digital thermometer from a kiln company in Stoke-on-Trent......a bit dear at £160 but cheaper than ponying up for a new kiln! http://www.armatherm.de/index_e.htm -------------------------------------------- MTMTPOST4904POST4904POST4906POST4906MBMBBy Rona Moody (Rona_moody) ( - 62.252.224.25) on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 08:35 am: Fizz built my temperature control box, from sticky back plastic and chewing gums and bits from the bin at work; useful being married to a physicist who designs machines for monitoring! When I was training, I had to fire by eye - when the glass reached cherry-red, it was ready. I got quite good at it at the time though I suspect I'd be rubbish now and have to learn all over again. ------------------------------------- MTMTPOST4905POST4905MBMBMBMBBy Cathy_carr (Cathy_carr) ( - 62.136.92.135) on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 06:04 pm: Sorry I've not replied. My husband managed to break his ankle playing squash late sunday, so that entailed a night and a day in the hospital. Then my internet went down. Warning - do not be enticed by very cheap offers from internet providers, I've had nothing but problems sinced I switched! Back to the subject - the printer I used is a HP 1018 Laserjet (the toner came with it) from PC World. The paper was ceramic laser decal paper (clear)from Beldecal in America. They were very quick on postage and you can buy in small (25 sheet) quantities. Link below. http://www.beldecal.com/ I printed the picture, left the ink to dry for a few minutes then floated on water for 30 secs. The decal seperated from the backing paper and I placed it on the glass. Watch out, because it has a tendency to curl up. Tweezers would have been a useful tool. Make sure you use a cloth or sponge to get out all the air bubbles etc and leave to dry overnight. You're right Rona, I have an American kiln. The controller tends to want to work in Farenheit although I believe I can change it to Celsius (which I must do). Having learnt both at school though - I don't have a problem shifting from one to the other. As for teaching it to your students. Is'nt using the chemical composition of toner and heat just another step along in the technological advancements of staining glass? I can't see it taking over from painting skills though as the density of the image and the printing of enamels, stain etc is'nt developed yet for small scale work as far as I know,(which is'nt a lot). I think it can supplement a work but not replace observation and drawing skills. What do others think? Jon,anyone, if you try this out let me see your results please. | ||
| Rona Moody |
Jon - thanks for keeping this and reposting! I have now copied it to my computer for future reference. | ||
| Ed_t_Editor |
There you are. You did not need me to keep all those threads. The important ones are reappearing in here as if by magic. And as if using good sense, I increased the allowed size of posts so that you could paste them in without needing more than one message. As they say, it all works out in the end (thank goodness!) | ||
| Rona Moody |
In fact, this hiccup was all part of some cunning plan on Ed's part to make us feel as if we share ownership of this board and to make us take responsibility for sharing and storing the knowledge. Clever, huh? | ||
| Jon |
I have completed my own first successful experiments with Cathy's xerography technique. In my haste to have a go, I probably cut some corners - but have learnt useful things in consequence. Firstly I didn't let the decals dry overnight but simply dabbed them down. My reasoning was that the kiln would do the drying as it ramped up. I don't think that is a good idea because decal attachment seems poorer. Secondly, i was not particularly assiduous about getting bubbles out -several of the pieces have "holes" in the decals where i think the bubbles have expanded and burst. As a rule this seems to be less problematic with float - smoother surface = fewer bubbles. I have tried various glasses and have fired the whole lot at 1400 deg F. I have picked images with a range of contrast and shades to test it out. On the whole they seem to work well. The biggest asset and drawback is that the images are brown (they are fundamentally rust after all). If you want black, you're out of luck. On the other hand, I can see ways in which these sepia images can be used atmospherically and creatively - in fact sepia images on glass is almost a throwback to early photography. I guess it will work better with some glass colours than others. The pictures are at http://www.picturetrail.com/jonstamford I will post more pictures as I practice more with the method. Jon | ||
| Pat |
I found a site that sells pre-printed small decals and it offers tips and tricks at http://www.glassartpatterns.com/glass-tips-tricks-1.asp Some of the tips might prove useful, such as the use of a credit card to remove bubbles. | ||
| Cathy Carr Username: Cathycarr Registered: 12-2006 |
Jon - your message has only just appeared on my screen for some reason, so sorry about the late posting. The pictures are great. Very well done. The photos excellent. What camera do you use - you've really captured the essence of a shot. Are you professional? As you said, its very important to let the decals dry out and to make sure they're adhered properly to the glass. The bubbles are a warning to me not to cut corners in technique, even though I am tempted. I particularly like the yellow kokomo glass and want to experiment with various colours/densities/thickness's now (what does sepia go with?). I also want to try lettering and free drawing. Are your pictues on single thickness glass (3mm)? Did you top any and take them to full fuse? So much more to find out..... My Christmas holidays will soon be here and I can get back to glass only for a while. Its funny how quickly you get out of it when you're distracted by other things. Unitl then I'll look forward to your next batch of experiments and i'll think about mine. | ||
| Cathy Carr Username: Cathycarr Registered: 12-2006 |
Pat - thanks for the link. A wise set of instructions indeed! I will save the link, inwardly digest and try and practice them. | ||
| Tommy the Technician Username: Rod Registered: 12-2006 |
Hi Rona & Jon a very interesting thread well thought out and developed just one point I note that you are using float at one point when you experience failure could not working on the tinned side have an impact on results? | ||
| Jon Stamford Username: Jon Registered: 12-2006 |
I have just finished a simple xerography piece - actually my 9 year old son's idea. He did a brass rubbing in a local church and suggested a stained glass panel. I think it has worked well. He likes it anyway. The knight was fired on float at 1380F. No coating. I restrained my impatience, pressed out the bubbles and let it dry for 12 hours before firing. http://www.picturetrail.com/jonstamford | ||
| Vic Rothman Username: Vic2 Registered: 12-2006 |
Question that no one has asked or answered. Are these images light fast, or will UV light destroy them? | ||
| Jon Stamford Username: Jon Registered: 12-2006 |
And a good question too Vic. Short answer is that we don't know - Cathy and I have only been doing them for a couple of months. My gut feeling is that they should be stable. The image is essentially iron oxide (rust). My knight is hanging in strong sunlight (well, as strong as January sunlight is). I will let you know if he fades. | ||
| Pat from Canvey Username: Pat Registered: 12-2006 |
Cathy and Jon Have a look at http://www.goess-studio.com/sfexchange/sfexchange_06_holiday/sfholidayexchange06 .pdf number 11 by Kim V She used decal paper to produce her square. | ||
| Cathy Carr Username: Cathycarr Registered: 12-2006 |
Great link Pat! Well spotted. I wonder if she/he looks at this site? If you do Kim, let us know so we can pick your brains too. Just shows you, there is nothing new under the sun, just ideas waiting to be rediscovered. | ||
| Kim V Username: Kimv Registered: 01-2007 |
Good morning all, Pat invited me to join you. You are welcome to pick my brain, but please understand, I've just started playing with this so I have questions too. I'll probably be doing a reverse pick :-) Kim V | ||
| Maura Marini Shumake Username: Maura Registered: 01-2007 |
I started messing with the papers in December. Got some from Delphi and Beldecal. They are not identical. I had near flawless results with the Delphi paper but need to work on my schedule for the Beldecal (I experimented with the same glass, techniques and schedule but got very different results.) I think the Beldecal might require a lower fusing temp. Anyone know? I researched printers on the HP printer website: look at the MSDS for the toner, find one that lists iron oxide; for instance, I bought an HP Laserjet 1020. Also, the final fused image should be resistant to fading as it is pure iron oxide: http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/iron_oxide/ | ||
| Cathy Carr Username: Cathycarr Registered: 12-2006 |
Still mulling over applications for this idea, so I've not really done much more. I also had some stained glass windows to complete and plenty of homework from unito finish. However, I've been thinking of pattern effects and experimented with a part of Damien Hursts 'Valium' print, really to check various tones after firing. Even with the fading after a full fire and a slump, there is good variation. I will try and fire decal side down next and try and get an overall pattern cover....just to see. the link is at http://www.picturetrail.com/cathycarr PS apologies for the rough finish. I havn't cold worked it yet and I did apply the kiln wash in a bit of a rush! | ||
| Jon Stamford Username: Jon Registered: 12-2006 |
Vic - "Question that no one has asked or answered. Are these images light fast, or will UV light destroy them?" Six months on from my last posting and the rusty knight looks just the same. Seems stable so far. | ||
| Pat from Canvey Username: Pat Registered: 12-2006 |
Cathy What do you use to coldwork your bowls. I have some pot melts that could do with some coldworking but haven't much clue as to how to go about it. Any courses you can recommend? | ||
| Cathy Carr Username: Cathycarr Registered: 12-2006 |
Hi Pat, I've had problems with my potmelts being fired directly onto a kiln shelf and picking up a lot of kiln wash. Most of it was removed with a stiff brush after soaking in vinegar overnight. (don't know where I picked that hint up). I then experimented by firing into a large terracota flower pot saucer (the bit that keep the water in)after coating the clay in kiln wash and the covering the base with bullseye thinfire paper - voila- a clean pot melt! For finishing, I have had access this year to a cold workshop which included a wetbelt vertical sander, and a flat lap sander. This helped a little , but I had to resort to diamond hand pads, and laborious (but strangley calming) hand grinding with coarse, medium and fine grit followed by a pumice polish. Even that work did'nt always help, leaving a matt surface . I then fire polished, which was satisfactory. Much easier to work out how not to get kiln wash on in the first place! Can't recommend any particular courses although pearsons in liverpool offer stuff like this (just e mail them). All mine has been trial and error. Any experts out there who know more? Jon perhaps... | ||
| Jon Stamford Username: Jon Registered: 12-2006 |
A year on and the rusty knight is just as rusty - no fading that I can detect. Which is more than can be said for me! | ||
| Pat from Canvey Username: Pat Registered: 12-2006 |
This link might prove useful. I found it on the Frit Happens site, http://www.artclaysupplies.co.uk/show_ac.php?mc=imagetransfer&pg=1 |